MSNBC’s Ari Melber and a lawyer for Donald Trump had a heated discussion about whether the former president lied about a hush money payment he made before the 2016 election.
At issue is a $130,000 payment Trump’s former attorney, Michael Cohen, made to Stormy Daniels, who alleges she had an affair with Trump. The Manhattan district attorney is currently investigating the payment, which is not necessarily illegal, but the DA has reportedly been looking into whether Trump falsified business records to hide the payment.
Cohen said Trump reimbursed him for the payment, which Trump denies authorizing. Melber cited a report about Cohen’s payment to Daniels.
“I want to get the benefit of your response,” Melber told Joe Tacopina before quoting a New York Times report. “‘Prosecutors could argue that $130,000 became a donation to Trump’s campaign under the theory the money was silencing Daniels.’ So, two-part question. Why lie about this and why misidentify the payment if it was legal? And second, your response to that theory of the case?”
“This is Donald Trump paying with his own money,” Tacopina responded. “First of all, there’s a crucial distinction between separating campaign funds from personal funds, right? And on personal fund usage, here’s the bright line test. And it ends this case. It ends any case regarding Stormy Daniels. If the spending or the fulfillment of a commitment or the expenditure would exist irrespective of a campaign, it’s not a campaign law violation. End of story. This would ive exist irrespective of the campaign.”
Tacopina’s response led into this exchange:
MELBER: You’re making a potential defense that he would’ve paid this out, regardless?
TACOPINA: It’s–not only would I say that. His lawyer at the time, who pled guilty to all sorts of lies and frauds who’s now a cooperator said that under oath. He said that under oath.
MELBER: Can you point to other payments that Trump made like this outside of a campaign?
TACOPINA: During the time of the campaign?
MELBER: Outside of that campaign year, in his other many years on planet Earth, has he ever made a payment like this?
TACOPINA: How would I–I have no idea, Ari. I have no idea. But Donald Trump is a litigious individual, who gets sued by a lot of people, ok? Commences lawsuits. And all the time, things are settled. I’ve represented hundreds of people in similar situations where they make payments for what’s called a nuisance statement. Look, $125,000 [sic] to you it’s nothing, but to me it would be important. But to Donald Trump, it’s what’s called a nuisance settlement, ok? And when you do that, it’s to make a problem, an embarrassing problem go away. Doesn’t mean it’s real, because he vehemently denies an affair. So, it doesn’t mean it’s real or not. It means you’re settling something to not have to deal with the aggravation of it.
MELBER: It sounds like a lot of money to me. And we’ve never done that much together, but if you’re at the early bird special with me, you’d know I like to keep things as cost effective as possible. But I’ll ask you this. If all of what you say is true–
TACOPINA: It is.
MELBER: –then why was Trump hiding it and lying about it at the time?
Melber then played a clip of Trump denying he knew about Cohen’s payment to Daniels.
TACOPINA: Ari, that is–if that’s what you’re gonna consider a lie, a lie to me is something material under oath in a proceeding.
MELBER: I didn’t say perjury. I said a lie.
TACOPINA: Yeah, but that’s not a lie.
MELBER: That’s not a lie?!
TACOPINA: Here’s why it’s not a lie.
MELBER: That’s not a lie?!
TACOPINA: Here’s why it’s not a lie. [Tacopina reaches for a sheet of paper Melber is holding.] Could you put the paper down? Put the paper down. Let me answer.
MELBER: Did know about this?
[CROSSTALK]
TACOPINA: Here’s why it’s not a lie. Because it was confidential settlement. So, if he acknowledged that, he would be violating the confidential settlement. So, is it the truth? Of course not it’s not the truth! Was he suppose to tell the truth? He would be in violation of the agreement if he told the truth. So, by him doing that, by him doing that he was abiding by, not only his rights but Stormy Daniels’ rights.
Melber responded by telling Tacopina, “It seems like we’re drawing some blood here because you’re having a strong reaction. He did lie about it and in a confidential settlement you can easily say, ‘No comment’ or ‘I’m not getting into it.’”
Watch above via MSNBC.
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